HDCP, HDMI, Repeaters, and You (Well, Me, Anyway)

By Aaron Brezenski (Intel) (5 posts) on April 22, 2008 at 5:15 pm

Hi, I'm Aaron Brezenski, and welcome to my blog.

I'd planned on a big introduction and discussion of what I hope to accomplish here, and I have about half of that written, but I'm not the important bit here, the high- and lowlights of Intel graphics in the Home Theater PC space are.

My plan is to discuss them, sometimes at length, and propose end-user friendly solutions and challenges to our graphics software developers. I'm not one, and don't pretend to know what their problems are; I'm approaching this from an end-user perspective (I own a G965 board) and am bringing back the messages from Consumerville that I'm not sure are being heard. So enough about that.

It's really unfair that my first post is essentially a gripe, but I feel it's important enough (and time sensitive enough, given where our competitors are in this space) right now that I'm skipping all the good things about Intel graphics usage in media and hitting what I consider to be one of the top 3 end-user issues which would prevent a small system builder or an individual from choosing Intel graphics for their Home Theater PC: HDCP repeater mode failures. Without further ado...


HDCP, HDMI, Repeaters, and You

How deep to go on HDCP this early in the game? Suffice it to say that HDCP is a handshake-driven content protection mechanism found in some DVI, most HDMI, and (likely all) DisplayPort interfaces. It enables a source device (a DVD player, Blu-ray player, cable box, or-- in the case we're concerned with-- HTPC) to detect the "sink" device (usually a monitor or A/V receiver) and determine whether said device is "safe".

If the sink device is "unsafe" (has not been given a set of licensed keys), no content will be passed. This is done to increase the difficulty level of someone inventing a device which can make a perfect digital copy of a video/audio stream and thereby providing a path for piracy. If you are a licensed keyholder and do something naughty like create a digital video recorder in violation of the license agreement, you can be fined and ultimately your keys can be removed from the list of valid ones: HDCP source devices will no longer recognize your sink device as valid.

I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of this technique or even the motivations behind the content owners who demanded this-- my opinions (and I do have some) aren't relevant to the technical issue which needs addressing. It is this:

As of the latest (15.8) Vista drivers, HDCP for a very common usage model is broken on Intel graphics (G965, GM965, G33, G35).

Now there are two kinds of "broken": one exposes Intel to legal ramifications (if our graphics solution sends out protected material without verifying the sink device is licensed, we can be liable) and one just annoys the hell out of customers who merely want to use their systems as advertised.

This is the latter sort, but I think it deserves attention, and my observation of current driver release candidates is making me worry it's either not documented as a sighting or not being addressed. Now, the issue in gory detail:

There are Intel graphics-based motherboards out there right now which issue video over HDMI (we actually are ahead of the competitive pack in that our HDMI solution incorpoates full 7.1 channel audio as well, but that's a topic for another day). The HDMI solutions currently out for Intel graphics consist of a third-party chip which sits on the SDVO bus (muxed into PCIe) and does the conversion from video data to HDMI signalling.

It should be plug and play, and in fact, if you plug an HDMI cable into your Intel-based HDMI motherboard, and then into an HDCP compliant TV set, everything works fine. The HDCP handshake occurs with this solution, detecting the validity of the sink device and telling the software application, "Yes, the video path is protected. Go ahead and send the video." WinDVD and PowerDVD solutions which want HDCP protection for their Blu-ray disks smile happily and run around like a small boy in a field.

This is one usage model; however, it's only half the story. Modern home theaters have lots of different source components (DVD, cable, HTPC, DVR... heck, maybe even an "ancient" VCR), and the usual solution to this problem is to have a switching audio/visual receiver. This consolidates all of the audio and video sources into one box and sends it out to the TV and to the nifty loud speakers in glorious 5.1 sound. This is how things have been done for years, and a significant number of folks operate their systems this way.

HDCP has provisions for this usage model, in fact. When the handshake occurs between the source device and the sink device, a valid sink must inform the source whether it is a "repeater" or not. A repeater is, at its most simple, a device which will be passing the HDCP-protected signal on to another sink device somewhere downstream. Sound familiar? An A/V receiver which is passing HDCP-protected data onward (presumably to another HDCP device like an HDTV) is acting as a repeater, and will report itself as such.

It is this condition which appears to be broken. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into a TV: Blu-ray disks will play. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into an A/V receiver with an HDTV on the other end: HDCP device invalid error.

It looks from the evidence like repeater mode on Intel graphics enabled HDMI is not working. This is being reported by folks on AVSForum (where I'm a member), and is global across all Intel-based HDMI motherboards, all A/V receivers attempted, and across all legitimate software players (WinDVD, PowerDVD, Arcsoft TMT).

It is not happening with ATI or Nvidia solutions, nor with other HDMI devices (HD DVD or Blu-ray players). It's isolated to Intel graphics.

This is huge for the home theater PC community, a large fraction of whom have multiple source devices and don't just plug directly into a TV. In addition, the competitive advantage we do have in the HDMI audio space is completely destroyed by this problem: if a software application won't send to a receiver because it's a "repeater", the nifty 7.1 channel HDMI audio is useless.

The technical class of nerds in home theater is robust. They have developed a workaround: it's called gray-market software whose name I shall not utter here but whose purpose is to strip the protection mechanism from the aforementioned legitimate software players so they never even request HDCP protection. No protection, no worries about repeater mode.

Problem solved? Does Intel really want to have standard HDMI functionality only work while using gray market hacking software? Of course we don't.

I challenge the Intel graphics software developers and validation teams to correct this in the 15.9 drivers.

Sure, that's easy for me to say: I'm not on that team.

I shouldn't have to be.

I see this as a big miss. I can't imagine how it was missed, with all the validation that goes on both internally and at OEMs, but it looks like a substantial gap. And it's causing end-users to avoid Intel graphics-- which we obviously don't want.

Welcome to the Home Theater PC space: where the enthusiasts will argue for hours over the picture quality of American Idol and will demand 7.1 channel 24bit 192kHz sampled sound on the same.

In this case, they just want their fancy new HDMI A/V receivers to work, as advertised, with Intel graphics. I don't think that part is too much to ask.

That's enough for now. I'll be back another day with more unreasonable demands. At least until they fire me.

AB

Categories: Visual Computing

Comments (46)

April 24, 2008 4:23 PM PDT


Mick		 Hi AB,

I would also like to add my voice to your concern over this issue. As you quite rightly point out, AV enthusiasts can "work around" this problem but that really isn't the point and isn't acceptable from a system builders perspective.

I work of an AV focused HTPC OEM in the UK and we are currently developing and selling products based around Intel Graphics platfoms (G33, G35 and hopefully G45 in the near future). We moved to Intel IGP platforms from the "competition" primarily because we recognised the significant advantage of the HDMI audio solution. Unfortunately, as you point out, this key feature becomes rather pointless (or at least less advantageous) while the HDCP repeater bug persists and it is now causing not insignificant business issues.

We believed that it was a simple oversight in early drivers and have been expecting a fix in each subsequent release. The fact that this hasn't happend is made worse by the prospect of it not even being a recognised problem. Unfortunately we can only tell our clients "it's coming soon" for so long before they either give up on us and look elsewhere and/or demand their money back. While we used to be able to claim that it would be worth the wait by arguing "superiority" based on the unique capabilities, these days are drawing to an end with the release of new platforms from competitors which can equal and potentially beat G35 in terms of features.

My fear (and hopefully Intel's) is that if these "other" solutions work as advertised then customers (both end users and OEMs) will have little choice but to switch and if this happens, G45 (when it's released) will have an uphill struggle to gain market share rather than being the next logical step. If G33/35 can be fixed "now" then more of us will "stick with it" and then make the logical transition to G45 when it comes along (evolution instead of revolution so to speak).

To anyone on the Graphics Driver team reading this blog please, please get this fix into 15.9 for eveyone's sake. It is essential. If there really isn't a "sighting" of the problem I would be happy to make one through the US channels. I've already tried with UK support but I guess that didn't have much of an impact.

On a positive note, it's great to see you blogging AB. Looking forward to your next entry and discussions regarding the good features that exist in both present and future Intel IGP solutions.

Nice work!!

Mick.
April 25, 2008 6:14 AM PDT


André Strauch		 Hello,

i have an Intel DG33TL Mainboard, last week i bought an LG blu-ray burner and a Rattaoulie bluray disc. I installed the 14.8 graphicsdriver from februrary 2008. To view the Bluray i used Powerdvd 7.3 but i didn't get any hdcp compliant output through the dvi output. The change from a ati graphicscard to an intel onboard graphics is very difficult, at first i can't calibrate my nec spectraview over the ddc/ci signal, now i can't view HDTV over DVI. Everytime i had to "tinker".
I hope the new Driver will come soon. The Board is an year old now and is still unable to do the things it is build for.

Best regards

André Strauch
April 25, 2008 6:20 AM PDT


André Strauch		 Sorry i mean the driver 15.8.2 from april this year and i use Vista. The processor is an E6750.
April 25, 2008 9:00 AM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 André,

Some people have had some trouble with PowerDVD 7.3 and the Intel drivers; I've seen people ultimately succeed by de-installing PDVD, purging the registry of all it has left behind, and then reinstalling *after* the latest Intel drivers have been installed. From these results, I suspect that PDVD checks once (on install) for the presence of compliant drivers and if you start out with old (pre-15.6.1) drivers and later change to ones which are supported, PDVD sometimes doesn't "get the memo".
April 30, 2008 12:02 PM PDT


Niklas Morberg		 My main problem with Intel's drivers is that they *don't* provide sound over HDMI. Unfortunately Intel's support has only answered with blanket (and of course) incorrect statements. I have a driver from October that is somewhat decent, but unfortunately causes blue screens every other day on my Vista HTPC.

See write-up here: http://niklasmorberg.blogspot.com/2008/03/nothing-on-but-reruns.h tml
April 30, 2008 12:35 PM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Niklas,

There are several out there, and the differences between the 2034 and 2035 drivers are not entirely clear to me. The newer ones bundled with the 15.9 graphics driver release seem to work a lot better for most people. The other thing is that if you unzip the graphics driver file into a temporary directory, you can install the HDMI Audio drivers separately, so you're not tied into making the graphics drivers match the audio.

I agree that Intel might need to be better about retaining older drivers; we used to have quite an archive of them but sometime last year retention practices changed.
May 2, 2008 4:10 PM PDT


André Strauch		 Hello,

so i tried the new 15.9 driver i don't get playback via dvi, i always get the error: that there is no hdcp support. i reinstalled the system, i tried PowerDVD 7.3, i tried Total Media Theater, i tried PowerDVD 8 Ultra. No chance. So i borrow a Ati Radeon 3650 and it works, with PowerDVD 7.3, with PowerDVD 8.0 and with the Total Media Theater, no problem. I think Intel have to do there homework. Intel worries me. One of the biggest company is unable to write graphicsdrivers. I only had problems, whatever i do with this onboard graphic. I'm frustrated :(.

Greetings

André Strauch
May 16, 2008 10:26 PM PDT


Nathan Bray		 Hi Aaron,
Thanks for your blog. I too have spent alot of time at the AVS forum trying to get the best from my SG33G5 Shuttle (G33) as a dedicated HTPC outputing all my media including Blu-ray / HD-DVD via a Yami V2700 to a Pio 60" Plasma. For me the G33 based HDMI Video/Audio solution is perfect with two major excpetions:
1) Repeater Bug as mentioned
2) Proper 24hz support. At present many of us run a 60hz but that suffers from 3:2 pulldown as 24hz seems to have been removed in the latest drivers and previoulsy (for me) suffered a stutter each 17sec. Any advice or advancment here would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Nathan
May 16, 2008 10:28 PM PDT


Nathan Bray		 ps - I have raised these issues with Intel Customer Support but just got the run around (and hence have up).
May 17, 2008 9:57 AM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Already have an article on 24p half-written for posting here. Expect it soon.
May 17, 2008 2:21 PM PDT


Nathan Bray		 Thanks Aaron - looking forward to it
May 20, 2008 11:39 AM PDT


Steven		 Regarding repeater support using Intel graphics -

As part of Windows XP SP2, Microsoft defined and released a new driver interface called COPP (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc307975(VS.85).aspx). Primarily because of scheduling constraints, Microsoft elected not to include repeater support as part of that interface. In fact, applications that use COPP devices to enable HDCP are specifically forbidden by the specification (and presumably their license agreements) to enable HDCP if the application detects a repeater. Quoted from MSDN (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc307946(VS.85).aspx):

This query also determines whether the connected HDCP device is a monitor or an HDCP repeater. The application should not play protected content if the HDCP device is an HDCP repeater, because these are not supported by COPP.

As part of Vista development, Microsoft built on the COPP interface and created a new interface called OPM (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa906449.aspx). OPM is backward compatible with COPP, meaning that legacy COPP applications will run on Vista. The OPM interface also newly defines support for repeaters. However, the new repeater support only applies to new applications implemented with "OPM semantics." Legacy COPP applications are still limited because the application does not know how to turn on HDCP when a repeater is present.

Perhaps the issue is not that Intel graphics does not support repeaters, but rather the application does not support repeaters because of the limitations of the COPP specifications.
Perhaps the fix for the problem will come not when a new driver is released, but when a new application with OPM support is implemented.
Perhaps customers are "getting the run around" and are frustrated because they're asking for the wrong thing.

So why do other graphics solutions work with these applications?

Perhaps other graphics vendors have added backdoors or other proprietary mechanisms in their COPP implementations to allow applications to enable HDCP despite the restrictions of the specification and the legal obligations of the license agreements.
Perhaps Intel is well aware of the gap in support with the competition and has been lobbying Microsoft for a decision regarding the implications of the specification's wording.
Perhaps conducting business with integrity sometimes means making difficult decisions not all companies are willing to make.
May 20, 2008 12:06 PM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Wow. Nice response, Steven, with very interesting implications. I will take your "perhapses" as they are intended, I think.

It brings to question whether the Intel graphics drivers currently support OPM, but I think that the delivery of this message is an important one. Thanks profusely for your post.
May 28, 2008 9:39 AM PDT


jimmy		 If i read this before, i will never spend the $$$$$ on a G35 board. now i need to use those gray market software to play my Blueray disks. it really p*ss me off. please, intel, fix this. thanks
May 28, 2008 10:21 AM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Don't need the gray market software merely to play Blu-ray disks, just to get 8-channel audio out over HDMI.

Recent indications are that Intel is 1) aware of the issue and 2) attempting to get the folks who sell the player software (PowerDVD, WinDVD, Arcsoft TMT) to write their code in a way that complies with the OPM specs, or at the very least that part of the spec which deals with repeaters. I suspect this will happen very soon.
July 23, 2008 3:23 AM PDT


Mick		 Hi Aaron,

Have you heard if any of the player software vendors have fixed this yet? I've not found the working combo so far and am hoping that I've just missed it.

Thanks,

Mick.
August 13, 2008 7:22 AM PDT


Terry		 So I just bought a G45 based Intel board (DG45ID). Now I come across this and honestly i am terrified i just wasted my money. I am using this HTPC to play BD over HDMI to my Onkyo 705 Receiver with 7.1 Audio and video to my Samsung LN32A650. Is the repeater problem still here on this board, I am assuming if it is truly a software problem it would have remained until software vendors got on the ball.
August 22, 2008 12:36 AM PDT


fajensen		 This whole mess is yet another "Blue-on-Blue" created by content providers and faithfully executed by the hardware and software manufactures.

Nobody learned anything from the Region Code mess; By the time HDCP actually works - in the sense that even my mother can get a BlueRay DVD to play - the majority of the market will have been captured by cheap Chinese knock-off products with "buggy" HDCP implementation that just happen to ignore / bypass the HDCP standard and *play the content* regardless of the users setup.

Ultimately, playing content is what the customers want and they will rapidly learn to buy accordingly!

Absolutely pathetic I.M.O.
September 6, 2008 10:48 AM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Sorry it's been a while, folks. Been very busy with the Work part of work. Terry, you didn't waste your money. The software vendors are slowly but surely making themselves compatible-- WinDVD's latest iteration works with repeater mode, giving 7.1 channel HDMI audio with Intel's chipsets, and Arcsoft's player will support it soon, if not already. I would expect PowerDVD to follow suit soon as well.
September 21, 2008 4:01 PM PDT


jack		 What about linux support for the G45ID (audio as well as video). If Intel is serious about the HTPC market then it needs to get behind the fastest, most stable (not to mention cost-effective) OS with the highest quality software ; by releasing drivers. Or is the old Intel/Microsoft anticompetitive cartel alive and well.
September 29, 2008 3:48 PM PDT


Gary Hansen		 I have yet to find a solutoion to this problem. I happen to be running Vista Ultimate 64 which I am sure complictaes things further. Which version of WinDVD do you think supports HDMI/HDCP with the G35 chipset? I went to Corel's web site, and they say nothing about this. If you dig deeply, there is a little information about supporting G45, but nothing that is really specific.
October 27, 2008 1:08 PM PDT


Thomas		 hi,
everybody is putting down intel but i have so say that also Ati has this kind of problem (or at least me).
I have :

-Asus M2A-VM Hdmi (with bundled hdmi card)
-yamaha rx-v463 (with 2 hdmi in/1 out)
-Mirai 32 lcd panel

There is no problems if I connect the pc to Mirai straight with a hdmi cable but if I do it through yamaha I get the picture but not the sound. I have tried uninstalling/reinstalling everything but nothing helps. I have solved the problem by connecting the pc to mirai with hdmi and the pc to yamaha with coaxal. It works but I think its ashame that I cant use the connections for what they are ment to.
I have been fighting with this problem for a week and it was nice to find your blog so that I finaly can understand where the problem is.
A big thanks and keep up the fight for our rights!

G:Thomas (from Finland)
October 27, 2008 1:09 PM PDT


Thomas		 ops, I forgot to say

-winxp pro sp3
November 18, 2008 2:49 AM PST


Tomas		 We did buy some Dell E4200 with GS45, and "upgraded" to Intel 5002 version, the do play 1080p material very well, but when we put a BlurayReader on we could not get it to show BlurayMovies Power DVD 7.3

Cyberlink BlueRay Disc Advisor (downloadable from there home page) is giving a "red light" on the driver, on the line: "Graphics card driver"
November 26, 2008 7:53 AM PST


EF		 I appreciate this blog but it is unfortunate that so much technical work has to be done in order work within a structure that's based on failed business models. Just the existence of Aaron's great posts puts an exclamation point on the cause of all of this. To help understand the "control, restrict, regulate" agenda of the DRM, copyright crowd, check out this blog. All of this DRM crapola does nothing to benefit the legitimate consumer, it just pisses us off.
November 26, 2008 7:56 AM PST


EF		 I left the url in the "Your URL" field but it did not post so here it is: http://www.techdirt.com/
January 15, 2009 5:10 PM PST


Donevan		 Has anyone had success with the latest and greatest patched up version of PowerDVD 8 Ultra on the Intel G45 chipset (specifically Intel DG45FC). I recently returned my version as installing it and getting the latest patches (Claiming to fix the repeater issue) still would not play when connected to my Yamaha RX-V663 received.
January 30, 2009 1:03 PM PST


seidel		 Hello

I have to motherboard Intel DG101 ang need of password the Bios, backdoor password for this boad, so lost my pass the my pc, please help me!
March 2, 2009 3:58 PM PST


evan		 I have this same problem - DG45ID board connected to an Onkyo TX-SR606 routing to a Canon SX6 projector, no HDMI signal out, can get DVI out.

intel says their escalating my case to see if there's a solution. Are there any workarounds or driver replacements for this yet???

I'm about to rip this & the duo-core out & send them back for something else.
March 2, 2009 4:20 PM PST

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Very different, actually. The repeater mode issue has been fixed for several months at this point (though as you can see from one of the comments above, there are still individual difficulties-- I am not clear on whether they're software incompatibilities or hardware or both). The repeater mode troubles would manifest in problems playing back Blu-ray with the receiver in the loop, while without the receiver Blu-ray would play back fine.

Sounds like you have a failure to detect your HDMI device at all when connected. That's not the repeater mode problem this blog discusses, it's an HDMI handshake issue of a completely different sort. I'd try posting in http://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/user-community-for-visual- computing/ to see if you can get assistance.
March 5, 2009 12:57 PM PST


Dan		 I have a brand new Dell Studio 1737 (released mid December 08) with Mobile Intel 4 Series Express embedded graphics. It is a GMA 4500MHD. It plays BD on the onboard screen perfectly, but with only 2 channel sound. When I hook it up through my Onkyo TX-875 receiver to my Mitsubishi 65732 HDTV via HDMI I get previews fine, but when the feature film starts nada. I get an error notice, "video driver is not HDCP compliant" when the BD movie tries to play. It will play 7.1 uncompressed audio via HDMI using a suitable signal source. BD content will not play via HDMI directly to HDTV either. My Receiver, HDTV, and HDMI cables are all HDCP compatible (compliant) and will play BD content using my friend's Sony 350BD player. Awesome! I think that proves my HTS is not at fault. I downloaded all the latest drivers, bios, and firmware available. I have contacted Dell and just get run around. I contacted Intel and they say it's Dell's problem. On several Dell Forums people with similiar problems "forced" Dell to give them Power DVD 8 Ultra (Ultra is the Bluray version) and it solved the problem. The Dell Media Direct 4.0BD program onboard doesn't work. There must be something in the DVD 8 Ultra to "bypass" HDCP? Do you think I have a driver problem or a BD program problem? The previews play just fine, audio and video! Is there a "new" HDCP protocol on the latest BDs because of the "BD Live" on-line option? Is it possible one must be connected with an ethernet cable to the movie's studio website in order to verify the HDCP? This HDCP is a load of ........ Every link in the chain has to have it's own "handshake" BD disc, BD player, video card, PCIe bus, receiver, HDMI cables, and HDTV; or no go. Why would a manufacturer put an HDMI output on the computer if you can't play BOTH the audio and video through your HTS? So Dell and Cyberlink are trying to force people to purchase software to allow a BD "ready" computer to work properly? I got an email from Dell just now saying the computer was designed to play BD content onboard ONLY! I'm so mad I'm leaving before I say something inappropriate!
March 11, 2009 3:19 PM PDT


Rune Raknes		 I have tried working together with Cyberlink(PowerDVD) to get DTS-HD via HDMI to my Onkyo Receiver from an Optiarc Blueray player without success (I use G35 motherboard). Cyberlink blame the repeater problem. I tried to update with latest Intel driver. As a result I get DTS-ES but no HD. Picture seem to be fine, but in the update I lost the possibility to connect a VGA monitor together with my projector. Then both projector and monitor goes out of range.
So it works in a way-but not as it should.
March 17, 2009 2:00 PM PDT


PJB		 Aaron,

First off, thanks for the blog on home theaters and pc’s.

I read your blog from April of 2008 about HDCP/HDMI and repeaters, and I think after almost one year, this would be a perfect time to post the fix. There is fix...isn't there??

I am having the same problems on a brand new Dell Inspiron laptop with blu-ray. I am trying to play a blu-ray movie connected to an Onkyo SR606 and am getting the HDCP error. When I connect the laptop directly to the tv monitor (65” olevia LCD) it will work; but not through the a/v receiver, which is a waste without surround sound.

My Inspiron uses Media Direct to play the disk. Should I use this program? Would hate to spend $ on something else.

Is there a fix yet?

Thanks!

March 17, 2009 5:38 PM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 The repeater mode "fix" was supposedly on the software side, so if that's the case contacting the software vendor (Cyberlink, Intervideo, Arcsoft) would be the best remedy. I think Media Direct is a rebranded version of one of these players, but for the life of me I can't recall which right now. I'd contact Dell if that's the vendor for Media Direct.

If this is an issue with a specific receiver and works on other *receivers*, this is something I'd contact Intel customer support on, as they can attempt to figure out why that particular reciever model is not coming back as HDCP protected.
March 18, 2009 12:22 PM PDT


Rune		 Got this comment from Cberlink with regard to DTS-HD, meaning that Cyberlink PowerDVD does not support DTS-HD on Intel.

In regard to your issue, we have forwarded this issue to our Product Development Department and they provide us the information that PowerDVD can output DTS/AC3 5.1 ch if you select SPDIF\(AC3 or DTS passthrough).

If you want to use DTS-HD bitstream output, then please use the audio card which supports audio security path.

You can use this card Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD and the link given below:

http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/item_1_4_1_en_US.html
March 18, 2009 3:57 PM PDT

Aaron Brezenski (Intel)
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 Separate issue. Wondering how much detail to go into here... Okay, what the heck.

The content protection on Blu-ray is known as AACS. The AACS licensing agreement (which all Blu-ray player vendors must sign) sets certain rules which must be followed in designing a Blu-ray player in order to protect the content from from being intercepted in its data path. For the purposes of this discussion, "Blu-ray player" = PC which can playback Blu-ray content.

One of these rules is that lossless audio streams must remain encrypted over "user-accessible buses" throughout the signal path all the way from the disk to the monitor. This is the "audio security path" which Cyberlink is referring to here, and it comprises 1) the decode of the audio from the disk to the Cyberlink software player, 2) the transfer of the audio data from the Cyberlink software player to the audio subsystem (Intel HD Audio) and 3) out of the PC to a receiver via analog cables or digitally via HDMI. If any these rules are not followed-- if this entire path cannot be verified as secure-- a licensed Blu-ray player vendor must degrade the audio to a maximum of 16bit/48kHz before transmitting it (stage 2) as listed above).

Cyberlink evidently believes that the audio path in stage 2) is not secure in most systems (the Intel HD Audio bus is not encrypted) and that they must therefore not provide full quality DTS-HD audio over said bus. It's probably arguable whether Intel HD Audio is a "user accessible bus", but the software vendors need to protect themselves legally in order to avoid losing their AACS license-- without it, they're locked out of the entire Blu-ray game. In the end, while I might consider them overly paranoid, it's their business they've got to protect; I might do the same, were I in their shoes.

There exists one audio solution they do consider secure (the aforementioned Auzentech sound card) and for that device they are willing to pass undecoded DTS-HD audio encrypted over the PCIe bus, muxing it in with the HDMI video signal from the video card/chip.

Other options for Cyberlink would be to decode the lossless DTS-HD into 8-channel LPCM sound in the player (but again this would require either a secure signal path or purposely degrading the sound to 16bit/48kHz) or downconverting it in the player to lossy AC3/DTS and passing. The way I read the message you got from them, Cyberlink does not decode DTS-HD in their player at all (for whatever reason) and therefore the only way to get DTS-HD is for them to pass it along undecoded over the Auzentech. It could also be read as Cyberlink degrading the DTS-HD audio to AC3/DTS, but that seems wasteful-- simpler would be to just send it as degraded LPCM.

In any case, that's where they are getting "PowerDVD does not support DTS-HD on Intel". They only recognize one solution as secure enough for their licensing needs right now -- sending the audio in undecoded but encrypted form over PCIe -- and all current integrated graphics (of whatever vendor) do not conform to this solution. I suspect we'll see solutions soon which will, but I've not seen a product announcement yet.

Again, this is divorced from the repeater mode issue, but since it touches on content protection I wanted to address it to try to reduce confusion. Hopefully I didn't make matters worse.
March 28, 2009 2:38 PM PDT


Dan		 OK. I've got an update on my "problem". My Dell 1737 w/ Intel Mobile Express 4 embedded graphics accelerator. First, I removed the "program" from Control Panel Device Manager Programs and Features "Intel Graphics Media Accelerator Driver" If you don't remove the "old", ahem, driver here you can download the Intel updated driver/s and they will show under Device Manager Display Adapter "Mobile Intel 4 Series Express Chipset Family" as current. Wrong! You must run an Intel INF Update Utility to configure the Operating System, XP or Vista. With igfxconf.inf "run" things improve greatly. I now have the 1900 X 1080P full screen when I use the computer to display on my HDTV. No more downscaling! Then I discovered there are 3 different Dell driver downloads for Vista 64 AND you need them ALL. Two are listed under the Dell driver download "video" tab. The other is under the "chipset" tab. GM45 "video" and the other "video" for the GMA 4500MHD Graphics Media Accelerator and the GM 45 Series Family Chipset under "chipset". These 4, 3 drivers and the INF utility provide a paclage with three different driver numbers. 15.11.64.1576 A04 and 15.11.64.1545 A01 and 8.7.0.1007 A00 per Dell. Alot of effort just to get a "full 1080P" image of the computer screen through my receiver to my HDTV. It's a shame Dell doesn't differentiate that the Intel 4 Series "Family" has these 3 separate "embedded" parts. (There are probably other "Families" with 2 or more drivers.) Intel doesn't stress running the INF utility either. I had to read the release notes carefully to discover "program" removal and INF utility info. It's critical to remove the GMA "program" first, then download the three drivers, and then run the INF utility. This also updates the Audio drivers for some reason. I wound up with 6.10.1.2068!? Hey it works! I'm getting uncompressed audio, much at the higher bitrates nessessary for true HD 7.1 channel BD audio. One word of warning! This worked for me on my Dell 1737. I don't know what it will do on your computer. Still can't get BD playback even though I removed Dell Media Direct 4.0BD. When I reloaded 4.0BD and ran the Media Direct Update utility I got an update to 4.7BD. ??? Before the utility always said, "No update available." When I tried downloading MD 4.7 from the Dell Support Forum link, it always said I had to have MD 3.5 to proceed. ?? So, NOW I notice Intel has 15.13.0.64.1659 avaliable for the 4 Series! Dell has a new audio driver dated 3/25/09! Now I need to get the other two drivers and rerun the utility?? I just hope this helps someone else!!
April 1, 2009 5:26 AM PDT


Doug		 I purchased a Dell 540 S last month with the G45 chipset connected to a Marantz AV receiver to a Sony HD projector and and encountered the HDCP issue. I have had dozens of contacts with Dell trying to address the HDCP problem, with lots of finger pointing/suspicion that the problem is in my equipment, cables, or the particular blue ray disk I was trying to play. I also was in contact with Cyberlink and they provided me access to PowerDVD Ultra 8 which did not resolve the BD HDCP issue. Today I got a message from Cyberlink that they were working with Intel to investigate the issue as if this was something new to them. Given the discussion on AACS licensing requirements making this more than just a technical issue, I wonder if there is a chance of it being resolved.
April 2, 2009 2:07 PM PDT


Dan		 Well Doug I feel the same way. Unfortunately I don't think Onkyo sells enough of their receivers to make it likely they will pay the AACS "fee" to license any given receiver/repeater. It is not likely that my Sony BC-5600s BD drive will be "compliant" with AACS, especially if it connects with other receiver/repeater brands through Intel video processors to the HDMI out. Dell couldn't care less, they've got our money. Intel and Cyberlink really don't want to fix drivers or programs to let us play ACCS content via any output. Everyone is afraid of being sued for allowing copyrighted material to leave the computer, because then it "could" be copied. Intel is AACS's Papa so they can limit use of any particular function they want. That's why they are "embedding" the video and audio on the motherboards. It's a shame honest comsumers get screwed because some others steal copyrighted material! We are moving towards a day when the only electronics available will be Sony computers, HDTVs, receivers, and speakers (etc). Of course, Intel will supply the chips, Mirosoft the OS, and Cyberlink the video/audio software. Then they can charge for individual licenses for each new driver or program you want to use. Don't get me started on where the motion picture studios ..... Greed. I'll just buy more Sony, Intel, and Microsoft stock!! Ha1 So did you hear Cyberlink now has Ultra 9? It has full 7.1 HD audio multichannel for DTS HD Master, etc. I wonder if you could get a free upgrade since you just purchased Ultra 8? At least 9 might have the latest AACS? Then all your older DVDs soundtracks will sound outstanding.
April 27, 2009 12:40 PM PDT


Doug		 I had applied updates to PowerDVD 8 released a few weeks ago and got no change that would allow me to use an AV receiver between the PC and HD projector and get by the HDCP protection. However, Cyberlink was willing to sell PowerDVD 9 which claimed to play BlueRay but I was suspicious. So I messaged their support and was told they were waiting on a fix from Intel. ... Not sure anyone is really working on the problem.
May 27, 2009 6:06 PM PDT


D Mytty		 With all the talk of 'legal liability' regarding 'content protection' I wonder if any of the 'paranoid' corporations have ever heard of 'class action lawsuit'.

By my reckoning, there exists ample evidence that various corporations throughout the content-hardware-software chain have misled consumers as to the capabilities and compatibilities of their products.

I don't particularly like aggressive lawyers, but in the case of 'High Definition A/V' I think there's a broad agreement that companies have pursued their respective agendas with little regard to whether they have served the consumer in an honorable fashion.

Unfortunately, I do think it requires things like billion dollar fines and settlements to get boardroom attention. Speaking of fortune, lawyers are getting hungrier every day, and 'Big Media' looks like a luscious target.

Do big Consumer Electronics company really fear losing an AACS license? Hah...that's tea room drama.

In my opinion, Intel and company should truly fear a David User vs. Media Goliath retribution tale unfolding in John Grisham fashion somewhere in Podunk, Mississippi. Just imagine...a good lawyer playing to a jury of half-ignorant and truly geeky computer users that are just simmering with years of frustration at the hands of consumer-disrespecting CE companies.

Now that's a story I would read with glee.
June 9, 2009 5:42 AM PDT


Aneesh P mani		 which is the audio devise for my intel gm965 chipset family
September 12, 2009 8:20 AM PDT


Dan N Indy		 I have a new HP Slimline, running VISTA HOME (32bit) with an Nvidia GeForce G210 video card. It offers both HDMI and DVI output. Apparently another issue per Cyberlink PowerDvD7.3 is that it reads this type of card as a dual monitor piece of hardware and as an end result with get the infamous Fail toe enable HDCP. The free trial of slysoft product any dvd hd does remove the handshake issues but I can't believe the lack of professional Tech Supp one doesn't get from Cyberlink.
November 4, 2009 5:29 PM PST

jnriopel
Total Points:
10
Registered User
 I have a DELL Studio 1735 with BD drive, and a YAMAHA receiver, and a Samsung TV. Hoped Win7 might help with the issue. Only difference is whereas on Vista I had absolutely no soundout the HDMI chained to the receiver and then the TV, with Win7, I get stereo sound. DELL support I have spoken to is totally clueless about why this does not work, and most of the reps I have spoken with dont even know what HDCP is. *sigh*. Do I spend $300 on a standalone BD player, or is the latest Win/Power/Ultra/Cyber/whatever software from XYZ going to address my problem? If so, then the sw might be cheaper than a standalone BD player, and maybe I can also then convice DELL to pay for it because obviously I expected to be able to watch (and HEAR!) BD movies when I bought this "bleeding-edge" PITA.
-jnr, helpless in Quebec
November 4, 2009 5:33 PM PST

jnriopel
Total Points:
10
Registered User
 Forgot to mention my PC is ATI video, so this is not only an Intel problem as was initially mentioned in this thread, but I got to give it to Aaron/Intel for at least recognizing that there *is* a problem, and that we poor consumers are the ones experiencing all the frustration because of it and trying to get it recognized/resolved by 1st-level support people.
<off soapbox>
November 5, 2009 6:30 AM PST


Aaron Brezenski		 JNR,
It's not Intel hardware, but from my understanding people have coped with this on ATI hardware by using this method:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1091403&highlight=edid+override

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