EDIT (8/4/2011): I continue to get questions about this blog post even today, but I need to point out that the information is seriously outdated. A change was required to happen in vendor DVD software (PowerDVD, WinDVD, Arcsoft TotalMedia) and this was done in late 2008. Processors and chipsets from 2009 and beyond do not have this issue.
Hi, I'm Aaron Brezenski, and welcome to my blog.
I'd planned on a big introduction and discussion of what I hope to accomplish here, and I have about half of that written, but I'm not the important bit here, the high- and lowlights of Intel graphics in the Home Theater PC space are.
My plan is to discuss them, sometimes at length, and propose end-user friendly solutions and challenges to our graphics software developers. I'm not one, and don't pretend to know what their problems are; I'm approaching this from an end-user perspective (I own a G965 board) and am bringing back the messages from Consumerville that I'm not sure are being heard. So enough about that.
It's really unfair that my first post is essentially a gripe, but I feel it's important enough (and time sensitive enough, given where our competitors are in this space) right now that I'm skipping all the good things about Intel graphics usage in media and hitting what I consider to be one of the top 3 end-user issues which would prevent a small system builder or an individual from choosing Intel graphics for their Home Theater PC: HDCP repeater mode failures. Without further ado...
HDCP, HDMI, Repeaters, and You
How deep to go on HDCP this early in the game? Suffice it to say that HDCP is a handshake-driven content protection mechanism found in some DVI, most HDMI, and (likely all) DisplayPort interfaces. It enables a source device (a DVD player, Blu-ray player, cable box, or-- in the case we're concerned with-- HTPC) to detect the "sink" device (usually a monitor or A/V receiver) and determine whether said device is "safe".
If the sink device is "unsafe" (has not been given a set of licensed keys), no content will be passed. This is done to increase the difficulty level of someone inventing a device which can make a perfect digital copy of a video/audio stream and thereby providing a path for piracy. If you are a licensed keyholder and do something naughty like create a digital video recorder in violation of the license agreement, you can be fined and ultimately your keys can be removed from the list of valid ones: HDCP source devices will no longer recognize your sink device as valid.
I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of this technique or even the motivations behind the content owners who demanded this-- my opinions (and I do have some) aren't relevant to the technical issue which needs addressing. It is this:
As of the latest (15.8) Vista drivers, HDCP for a very common usage model is broken on Intel graphics (G965, GM965, G33, G35).
Now there are two kinds of "broken": one exposes Intel to legal ramifications (if our graphics solution sends out protected material without verifying the sink device is licensed, we can be liable) and one just annoys the hell out of customers who merely want to use their systems as advertised.
This is the latter sort, but I think it deserves attention, and my observation of current driver release candidates is making me worry it's either not documented as a sighting or not being addressed. Now, the issue in gory detail:
There are Intel graphics-based motherboards out there right now which issue video over HDMI (we actually are ahead of the competitive pack in that our HDMI solution incorpoates full 7.1 channel audio as well, but that's a topic for another day). The HDMI solutions currently out for Intel graphics consist of a third-party chip which sits on the SDVO bus (muxed into PCIe) and does the conversion from video data to HDMI signalling.
It should be plug and play, and in fact, if you plug an HDMI cable into your Intel-based HDMI motherboard, and then into an HDCP compliant TV set, everything works fine. The HDCP handshake occurs with this solution, detecting the validity of the sink device and telling the software application, "Yes, the video path is protected. Go ahead and send the video." WinDVD and PowerDVD solutions which want HDCP protection for their Blu-ray disks smile happily and run around like a small boy in a field.
This is one usage model; however, it's only half the story. Modern home theaters have lots of different source components (DVD, cable, HTPC, DVR... heck, maybe even an "ancient" VCR), and the usual solution to this problem is to have a switching audio/visual receiver. This consolidates all of the audio and video sources into one box and sends it out to the TV and to the nifty loud speakers in glorious 5.1 sound. This is how things have been done for years, and a significant number of folks operate their systems this way.
HDCP has provisions for this usage model, in fact. When the handshake occurs between the source device and the sink device, a valid sink must inform the source whether it is a "repeater" or not. A repeater is, at its most simple, a device which will be passing the HDCP-protected signal on to another sink device somewhere downstream. Sound familiar? An A/V receiver which is passing HDCP-protected data onward (presumably to another HDCP device like an HDTV) is acting as a repeater, and will report itself as such.
It is this condition which appears to be broken. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into a TV: Blu-ray disks will play. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into an A/V receiver with an HDTV on the other end: HDCP device invalid error.
It looks from the evidence like repeater mode on Intel graphics enabled HDMI is not working. This is being reported by folks on AVSForum (where I'm a member), and is global across all Intel-based HDMI motherboards, all A/V receivers attempted, and across all legitimate software players (WinDVD, PowerDVD, Arcsoft TMT).
It is not happening with ATI or Nvidia solutions, nor with other HDMI devices (HD DVD or Blu-ray players). It's isolated to Intel graphics.
This is huge for the home theater PC community, a large fraction of whom have multiple source devices and don't just plug directly into a TV. In addition, the competitive advantage we do have in the HDMI audio space is completely destroyed by this problem: if a software application won't send to a receiver because it's a "repeater", the nifty 7.1 channel HDMI audio is useless.
The technical class of nerds in home theater is robust. They have developed a workaround: it's called gray-market software whose name I shall not utter here but whose purpose is to strip the protection mechanism from the aforementioned legitimate software players so they never even request HDCP protection. No protection, no worries about repeater mode.
Problem solved? Does Intel really want to have standard HDMI functionality only work while using gray market hacking software? Of course we don't.
I challenge the Intel graphics software developers and validation teams to correct this in the 15.9 drivers.
Sure, that's easy for me to say: I'm not on that team.
I shouldn't have to be.
I see this as a big miss. I can't imagine how it was missed, with all the validation that goes on both internally and at OEMs, but it looks like a substantial gap. And it's causing end-users to avoid Intel graphics-- which we obviously don't want.
Welcome to the Home Theater PC space: where the enthusiasts will argue for hours over the picture quality of American Idol and will demand 7.1 channel 24bit 192kHz sampled sound on the same.
In this case, they just want their fancy new HDMI A/V receivers to work, as advertised, with Intel graphics. I don't think that part is too much to ask.
That's enough for now. I'll be back another day with more unreasonable demands. At least until they fire me.
AB
Hi, I'm Aaron Brezenski, and welcome to my blog.
I'd planned on a big introduction and discussion of what I hope to accomplish here, and I have about half of that written, but I'm not the important bit here, the high- and lowlights of Intel graphics in the Home Theater PC space are.
My plan is to discuss them, sometimes at length, and propose end-user friendly solutions and challenges to our graphics software developers. I'm not one, and don't pretend to know what their problems are; I'm approaching this from an end-user perspective (I own a G965 board) and am bringing back the messages from Consumerville that I'm not sure are being heard. So enough about that.
It's really unfair that my first post is essentially a gripe, but I feel it's important enough (and time sensitive enough, given where our competitors are in this space) right now that I'm skipping all the good things about Intel graphics usage in media and hitting what I consider to be one of the top 3 end-user issues which would prevent a small system builder or an individual from choosing Intel graphics for their Home Theater PC: HDCP repeater mode failures. Without further ado...
HDCP, HDMI, Repeaters, and You
How deep to go on HDCP this early in the game? Suffice it to say that HDCP is a handshake-driven content protection mechanism found in some DVI, most HDMI, and (likely all) DisplayPort interfaces. It enables a source device (a DVD player, Blu-ray player, cable box, or-- in the case we're concerned with-- HTPC) to detect the "sink" device (usually a monitor or A/V receiver) and determine whether said device is "safe".
If the sink device is "unsafe" (has not been given a set of licensed keys), no content will be passed. This is done to increase the difficulty level of someone inventing a device which can make a perfect digital copy of a video/audio stream and thereby providing a path for piracy. If you are a licensed keyholder and do something naughty like create a digital video recorder in violation of the license agreement, you can be fined and ultimately your keys can be removed from the list of valid ones: HDCP source devices will no longer recognize your sink device as valid.
I'm not going to argue about the effectiveness of this technique or even the motivations behind the content owners who demanded this-- my opinions (and I do have some) aren't relevant to the technical issue which needs addressing. It is this:
As of the latest (15.8) Vista drivers, HDCP for a very common usage model is broken on Intel graphics (G965, GM965, G33, G35).
Now there are two kinds of "broken": one exposes Intel to legal ramifications (if our graphics solution sends out protected material without verifying the sink device is licensed, we can be liable) and one just annoys the hell out of customers who merely want to use their systems as advertised.
This is the latter sort, but I think it deserves attention, and my observation of current driver release candidates is making me worry it's either not documented as a sighting or not being addressed. Now, the issue in gory detail:
There are Intel graphics-based motherboards out there right now which issue video over HDMI (we actually are ahead of the competitive pack in that our HDMI solution incorpoates full 7.1 channel audio as well, but that's a topic for another day). The HDMI solutions currently out for Intel graphics consist of a third-party chip which sits on the SDVO bus (muxed into PCIe) and does the conversion from video data to HDMI signalling.
It should be plug and play, and in fact, if you plug an HDMI cable into your Intel-based HDMI motherboard, and then into an HDCP compliant TV set, everything works fine. The HDCP handshake occurs with this solution, detecting the validity of the sink device and telling the software application, "Yes, the video path is protected. Go ahead and send the video." WinDVD and PowerDVD solutions which want HDCP protection for their Blu-ray disks smile happily and run around like a small boy in a field.
This is one usage model; however, it's only half the story. Modern home theaters have lots of different source components (DVD, cable, HTPC, DVR... heck, maybe even an "ancient" VCR), and the usual solution to this problem is to have a switching audio/visual receiver. This consolidates all of the audio and video sources into one box and sends it out to the TV and to the nifty loud speakers in glorious 5.1 sound. This is how things have been done for years, and a significant number of folks operate their systems this way.
HDCP has provisions for this usage model, in fact. When the handshake occurs between the source device and the sink device, a valid sink must inform the source whether it is a "repeater" or not. A repeater is, at its most simple, a device which will be passing the HDCP-protected signal on to another sink device somewhere downstream. Sound familiar? An A/V receiver which is passing HDCP-protected data onward (presumably to another HDCP device like an HDTV) is acting as a repeater, and will report itself as such.
It is this condition which appears to be broken. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into a TV: Blu-ray disks will play. Plug Intel-enabled HDMI motherboard into an A/V receiver with an HDTV on the other end: HDCP device invalid error.
It looks from the evidence like repeater mode on Intel graphics enabled HDMI is not working. This is being reported by folks on AVSForum (where I'm a member), and is global across all Intel-based HDMI motherboards, all A/V receivers attempted, and across all legitimate software players (WinDVD, PowerDVD, Arcsoft TMT).
It is not happening with ATI or Nvidia solutions, nor with other HDMI devices (HD DVD or Blu-ray players). It's isolated to Intel graphics.
This is huge for the home theater PC community, a large fraction of whom have multiple source devices and don't just plug directly into a TV. In addition, the competitive advantage we do have in the HDMI audio space is completely destroyed by this problem: if a software application won't send to a receiver because it's a "repeater", the nifty 7.1 channel HDMI audio is useless.
The technical class of nerds in home theater is robust. They have developed a workaround: it's called gray-market software whose name I shall not utter here but whose purpose is to strip the protection mechanism from the aforementioned legitimate software players so they never even request HDCP protection. No protection, no worries about repeater mode.
Problem solved? Does Intel really want to have standard HDMI functionality only work while using gray market hacking software? Of course we don't.
I challenge the Intel graphics software developers and validation teams to correct this in the 15.9 drivers.
Sure, that's easy for me to say: I'm not on that team.
I shouldn't have to be.
I see this as a big miss. I can't imagine how it was missed, with all the validation that goes on both internally and at OEMs, but it looks like a substantial gap. And it's causing end-users to avoid Intel graphics-- which we obviously don't want.
Welcome to the Home Theater PC space: where the enthusiasts will argue for hours over the picture quality of American Idol and will demand 7.1 channel 24bit 192kHz sampled sound on the same.
In this case, they just want their fancy new HDMI A/V receivers to work, as advertised, with Intel graphics. I don't think that part is too much to ask.
That's enough for now. I'll be back another day with more unreasonable demands. At least until they fire me.
AB
Comments
I have a brand new Dell Studio 1737 (released mid December 08) with Mobile Intel 4 Series Express embedded graphics. It is a GMA 4500MHD. It plays BD on the onboard screen perfectly, but with only 2 channel sound. When I hook it up through my Onkyo TX-875 receiver to my Mitsubishi 65732 HDTV via HDMI I get previews fine, but when the feature film starts nada. I get an error notice, "video driver is not HDCP compliant" when the BD movie tries to play. It will play 7.1 uncompressed audio via HDMI using a suitable signal source. BD content will not play via HDMI directly to HDTV either. My Receiver, HDTV, and HDMI cables are all HDCP compatible (compliant) and will play BD content using my friend's Sony 350BD player. Awesome! I think that proves my HTS is not at fault. I downloaded all the latest drivers, bios, and firmware available. I have contacted Dell and just get run around. I contacted Intel and they say it's Dell's problem. On several Dell Forums people with similiar problems "forced" Dell to give them Power DVD 8 Ultra (Ultra is the Bluray version) and it solved the problem. The Dell Media Direct 4.0BD program onboard doesn't work. There must be something in the DVD 8 Ultra to "bypass" HDCP? Do you think I have a driver problem or a BD program problem? The previews play just fine, audio and video! Is there a "new" HDCP protocol on the latest BDs because of the "BD Live" on-line option? Is it possible one must be connected with an ethernet cable to the movie's studio website in order to verify the HDCP? This HDCP is a load of ........ Every link in the chain has to have it's own "handshake" BD disc, BD player, video card, PCIe bus, receiver, HDMI cables, and HDTV; or no go. Why would a manufacturer put an HDMI output on the computer if you can't play BOTH the audio and video through your HTS? So Dell and Cyberlink are trying to force people to purchase software to allow a BD "ready" computer to work properly? I got an email from Dell just now saying the computer was designed to play BD content onboard ONLY! I'm so mad I'm leaving before I say something inappropriate!
I have tried working together with Cyberlink(PowerDVD) to get DTS-HD via HDMI to my Onkyo Receiver from an Optiarc Blueray player without success (I use G35 motherboard). Cyberlink blame the repeater problem. I tried to update with latest Intel driver. As a result I get DTS-ES but no HD. Picture seem to be fine, but in the update I lost the possibility to connect a VGA monitor together with my projector. Then both projector and monitor goes out of range.
So it works in a way-but not as it should.
Aaron,
First off, thanks for the blog on home theaters and pc’s.
I read your blog from April of 2008 about HDCP/HDMI and repeaters, and I think after almost one year, this would be a perfect time to post the fix. There is fix...isn't there??
I am having the same problems on a brand new Dell Inspiron laptop with blu-ray. I am trying to play a blu-ray movie connected to an Onkyo SR606 and am getting the HDCP error. When I connect the laptop directly to the tv monitor (65” olevia LCD) it will work; but not through the a/v receiver, which is a waste without surround sound.
My Inspiron uses Media Direct to play the disk. Should I use this program? Would hate to spend $ on something else.
Is there a fix yet?
Thanks!
The repeater mode "fix" was supposedly on the software side, so if that's the case contacting the software vendor (Cyberlink, Intervideo, Arcsoft) would be the best remedy. I think Media Direct is a rebranded version of one of these players, but for the life of me I can't recall which right now. I'd contact Dell if that's the vendor for Media Direct.
If this is an issue with a specific receiver and works on other *receivers*, this is something I'd contact Intel customer support on, as they can attempt to figure out why that particular reciever model is not coming back as HDCP protected.
Got this comment from Cberlink with regard to DTS-HD, meaning that Cyberlink PowerDVD does not support DTS-HD on Intel.
In regard to your issue, we have forwarded this issue to our Product Development Department and they provide us the information that PowerDVD can output DTS/AC3 5.1 ch if you select SPDIF\(AC3 or DTS passthrough).
If you want to use DTS-HD bitstream output, then please use the audio card which supports audio security path.
You can use this card Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD and the link given below:
http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/item_1_4_1_en_US.html
Separate issue. Wondering how much detail to go into here... Okay, what the heck.
The content protection on Blu-ray is known as AACS. The AACS licensing agreement (which all Blu-ray player vendors must sign) sets certain rules which must be followed in designing a Blu-ray player in order to protect the content from from being intercepted in its data path. For the purposes of this discussion, "Blu-ray player" = PC which can playback Blu-ray content.
One of these rules is that lossless audio streams must remain encrypted over "user-accessible buses" throughout the signal path all the way from the disk to the monitor. This is the "audio security path" which Cyberlink is referring to here, and it comprises 1) the decode of the audio from the disk to the Cyberlink software player, 2) the transfer of the audio data from the Cyberlink software player to the audio subsystem (Intel HD Audio) and 3) out of the PC to a receiver via analog cables or digitally via HDMI. If any these rules are not followed-- if this entire path cannot be verified as secure-- a licensed Blu-ray player vendor must degrade the audio to a maximum of 16bit/48kHz before transmitting it (stage 2) as listed above).
Cyberlink evidently believes that the audio path in stage 2) is not secure in most systems (the Intel HD Audio bus is not encrypted) and that they must therefore not provide full quality DTS-HD audio over said bus. It's probably arguable whether Intel HD Audio is a "user accessible bus", but the software vendors need to protect themselves legally in order to avoid losing their AACS license-- without it, they're locked out of the entire Blu-ray game. In the end, while I might consider them overly paranoid, it's their business they've got to protect; I might do the same, were I in their shoes.
There exists one audio solution they do consider secure (the aforementioned Auzentech sound card) and for that device they are willing to pass undecoded DTS-HD audio encrypted over the PCIe bus, muxing it in with the HDMI video signal from the video card/chip.
Other options for Cyberlink would be to decode the lossless DTS-HD into 8-channel LPCM sound in the player (but again this would require either a secure signal path or purposely degrading the sound to 16bit/48kHz) or downconverting it in the player to lossy AC3/DTS and passing. The way I read the message you got from them, Cyberlink does not decode DTS-HD in their player at all (for whatever reason) and therefore the only way to get DTS-HD is for them to pass it along undecoded over the Auzentech. It could also be read as Cyberlink degrading the DTS-HD audio to AC3/DTS, but that seems wasteful-- simpler would be to just send it as degraded LPCM.
In any case, that's where they are getting "PowerDVD does not support DTS-HD on Intel". They only recognize one solution as secure enough for their licensing needs right now -- sending the audio in undecoded but encrypted form over PCIe -- and all current integrated graphics (of whatever vendor) do not conform to this solution. I suspect we'll see solutions soon which will, but I've not seen a product announcement yet.
Again, this is divorced from the repeater mode issue, but since it touches on content protection I wanted to address it to try to reduce confusion. Hopefully I didn't make matters worse.
OK. I've got an update on my "problem". My Dell 1737 w/ Intel Mobile Express 4 embedded graphics accelerator. First, I removed the "program" from Control Panel Device Manager Programs and Features "Intel Graphics Media Accelerator Driver" If you don't remove the "old", ahem, driver here you can download the Intel updated driver/s and they will show under Device Manager Display Adapter "Mobile Intel 4 Series Express Chipset Family" as current. Wrong! You must run an Intel INF Update Utility to configure the Operating System, XP or Vista. With igfxconf.inf "run" things improve greatly. I now have the 1900 X 1080P full screen when I use the computer to display on my HDTV. No more downscaling! Then I discovered there are 3 different Dell driver downloads for Vista 64 AND you need them ALL. Two are listed under the Dell driver download "video" tab. The other is under the "chipset" tab. GM45 "video" and the other "video" for the GMA 4500MHD Graphics Media Accelerator and the GM 45 Series Family Chipset under "chipset". These 4, 3 drivers and the INF utility provide a paclage with three different driver numbers. 15.11.64.1576 A04 and 15.11.64.1545 A01 and 8.7.0.1007 A00 per Dell. Alot of effort just to get a "full 1080P" image of the computer screen through my receiver to my HDTV. It's a shame Dell doesn't differentiate that the Intel 4 Series "Family" has these 3 separate "embedded" parts. (There are probably other "Families" with 2 or more drivers.) Intel doesn't stress running the INF utility either. I had to read the release notes carefully to discover "program" removal and INF utility info. It's critical to remove the GMA "program" first, then download the three drivers, and then run the INF utility. This also updates the Audio drivers for some reason. I wound up with 6.10.1.2068!? Hey it works! I'm getting uncompressed audio, much at the higher bitrates nessessary for true HD 7.1 channel BD audio. One word of warning! This worked for me on my Dell 1737. I don't know what it will do on your computer. Still can't get BD playback even though I removed Dell Media Direct 4.0BD. When I reloaded 4.0BD and ran the Media Direct Update utility I got an update to 4.7BD. ??? Before the utility always said, "No update available." When I tried downloading MD 4.7 from the Dell Support Forum link, it always said I had to have MD 3.5 to proceed. ?? So, NOW I notice Intel has 15.13.0.64.1659 avaliable for the 4 Series! Dell has a new audio driver dated 3/25/09! Now I need to get the other two drivers and rerun the utility?? I just hope this helps someone else!!
I purchased a Dell 540 S last month with the G45 chipset connected to a Marantz AV receiver to a Sony HD projector and and encountered the HDCP issue. I have had dozens of contacts with Dell trying to address the HDCP problem, with lots of finger pointing/suspicion that the problem is in my equipment, cables, or the particular blue ray disk I was trying to play. I also was in contact with Cyberlink and they provided me access to PowerDVD Ultra 8 which did not resolve the BD HDCP issue. Today I got a message from Cyberlink that they were working with Intel to investigate the issue as if this was something new to them. Given the discussion on AACS licensing requirements making this more than just a technical issue, I wonder if there is a chance of it being resolved.
Well Doug I feel the same way. Unfortunately I don't think Onkyo sells enough of their receivers to make it likely they will pay the AACS "fee" to license any given receiver/repeater. It is not likely that my Sony BC-5600s BD drive will be "compliant" with AACS, especially if it connects with other receiver/repeater brands through Intel video processors to the HDMI out. Dell couldn't care less, they've got our money. Intel and Cyberlink really don't want to fix drivers or programs to let us play ACCS content via any output. Everyone is afraid of being sued for allowing copyrighted material to leave the computer, because then it "could" be copied. Intel is AACS's Papa so they can limit use of any particular function they want. That's why they are "embedding" the video and audio on the motherboards. It's a shame honest comsumers get screwed because some others steal copyrighted material! We are moving towards a day when the only electronics available will be Sony computers, HDTVs, receivers, and speakers (etc). Of course, Intel will supply the chips, Mirosoft the OS, and Cyberlink the video/audio software. Then they can charge for individual licenses for each new driver or program you want to use. Don't get me started on where the motion picture studios ..... Greed. I'll just buy more Sony, Intel, and Microsoft stock!! Ha1 So did you hear Cyberlink now has Ultra 9? It has full 7.1 HD audio multichannel for DTS HD Master, etc. I wonder if you could get a free upgrade since you just purchased Ultra 8? At least 9 might have the latest AACS? Then all your older DVDs soundtracks will sound outstanding.
I had applied updates to PowerDVD 8 released a few weeks ago and got no change that would allow me to use an AV receiver between the PC and HD projector and get by the HDCP protection. However, Cyberlink was willing to sell PowerDVD 9 which claimed to play BlueRay but I was suspicious. So I messaged their support and was told they were waiting on a fix from Intel. ... Not sure anyone is really working on the problem.
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