Building PC Games for VR: Content, Design, Platforms and Distribution

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Thought Leaders in PC VR talk about designing and building games for PC VR, as well as which content works best and what technical hurdles you’ll encounter; then how to tackle distribution once your game is built.

Panel Members:

  • Todd Hooper, CEO – VReal
  • Anna Sweet - Head of Developer Strategy, Oculus
  • Justin Cooney, Director of OSVR Developer Relations, Razer
  • Pete Moss - Lead VR Engineer, Unity
  • Moderator – Mark Subotnik, Intel

All right. Welcome to the panel on VR in creating games for PC games for VR. We're going to do some quick introductions. I've got some questions that I've teed up with the audience. We'll eventually get a chance to have some of their own as well. And the panel is going to preview all the questions and hopefully have a nice dialogue here. But we'll see plenty of time for you to ask questions as well. 

So with that, I'll start with Anna and we've got a great panel. I'll let Anna to introduce herself, then Justin, Pete, and Todd, and then we'll get into some of the questions. 

Sure. So I'm Anna Sweet and I'm head of developer strategy at Oculus, so I work with all the third-party developers who work around the world who want to build for VR and I help them get going and get the pieces they need to bring their games and ideas to life. 

And [INAUDIBLE] passing the mic. 

Pass the mic. All right. 

This better? OK. So I'm Anna Sweet, and I'm head of developer strategy at Oculus. So I work with all the third party developers around the world who want to build for VR, and I want to help them bring their ideas from concept to life. 

Hi, there. I'm Justin Cooney. I'm head of developing relations for OSVR and so, like Anna my job is I'm working with developers all around the world to help bring their [INAUDIBLE] to life and make sure that their well educated with the [? ovarian ?] template solution [INAUDIBLE]. 

Can you hear me? My name is Pete Moss. I am in internet technologies. They call me VR dude because I was talking about VR before it was cool. That's not exactly true, but it's kind of true. I actually work in making demo contents for showing off how [INAUDIBLE]. 

Hey, everyone. I'm Todd Hooper. I'm the CEO of VReal. It's a game-streaming platform for VR Games that we just announced last month. Before then, I was actually working with Pete at Unity and I started wring games as a teenager and simply going solo. I guess I've been doing this game scene going on four years. 

[INAUDIBLE]. So I guess I'll introduce myself briefly. So I'm the VR guy at Intel. There's a few of us. Similar to Pete, I've been talking about this longer than most people around the Intel world. And it was crazy when I got invited  to go up to this room and vow two-something years ago and had [? win-win ?] all over. Again, [INAUDIBLE] VR stuff back in the '90s. Some of you were not thinking about games at all. So it's nice to see it back and nice to see a frequent PC [INAUDIBLE] for selfish reasons. 

So given that, I'm going to start the first question and follow that, just most of us have had experience of just over two years plus. What were your expectations when your first started and how did they change now in the two years that you've been working with VR for PC? 

So I'm like you, the VR experience was this was kind of stupid, but it was in a casino. I got a few drinks, and in the 1990's, there was this weird machine in the corner. I was like, what is that? They told me that was a virtual reality with Dactyl Nightmare. Does anyone know what that is? 

[INAUDIBLE]. 

All right. Look that up on the internet if you want to see how bad VR was back then. So I was like this yellow thing is never going to work right. And then flash forward many years, I was at the Unity office in San Francisco, and we had an early DK1 and I think there was some Tuscany demo pending. [INAUDIBLE], right? 

[INAUDIBLE]. 

Right. And so I'm like you are was kind of my first experience. So just like that from terrible laggy [INAUDIBLE] graphs to the modern VR was a pretty big leap. Let me say one of the things I find that is still pretty amazing and it doesn't apply to people in this room, but most people, you ask what they think of VI, they might have seen an early DK1 and DK2. They haven't seen the latest headsets with the latest opt-in and so they're still living in something that's an [? old ?] form, like everyone lives in every day. 

So I think we've seen this huge shift just in the last two years just from the [? Missouri ?] from first part to like what we have today. And so there's a lot of people who are heavily co-opted in that and so a long way to go. And if you think out two years what it's going to be people keep saying, well, it's just like the first iPhone, the new iPhones are so much better. It's only like the first, [? what ?] I find. It's like the first mobile. That's how a big difference from what we have today to what will happen in the next three to five years. 

The first experiences were, I guess back from the day. I don't know, maybe late '90s was the first time. I worked on a bunch of projects, companies working on [? game ?] string health. Somehow I had the chance to play with HMD Tech and the mid OTS, that's the theme, but kind of before this big new [? 8VR ?] hardware started. 

We were experimenting even with using cellphones. In fact, we had a prototype where we had two cellphones, and they were iPhone 3Gs maybe. But we were thinking the high-end user being pretty good and the screen resolution was getting pretty good. And there was kind of a natural focus in that direction. 

Then a year or two later, I started in Unity and wound up seeking the first big show of [INAUDIBLE] and made it my mission from then on to pull everyone in Unity that I could into it. At the time, there was very little idea in what VR was much less how important it would wind up being. And we've now pivoted this company to be very upwardly focused in VR. So my work here is done. I'll turn the mic over. 

For me, my first experience was on VMX1 back in the '90s. The big, black helmet thing was out then. I think I was [? flights ?] in DIND over in the UK. And yes, that experience was, as I remember, was not great. But referencing that, when I got back into VR, it was more on the VFX style of market and just what you can do now in with somebody that, again, mirror what you're powering with in a very compelling [? nice ?]. 

But the potential is just amazing and it's great for something even if this is a standard picture. But in VR in front of the average person's eyes, their reactions will blow you away. Everyone has these high-end, super games that are going to go away from an experience effect, I believe in something as simple as an energy requirement can be very compelling for people in pulling into VR, which as a market, I think this is going to be [? ultimate ?] time. 

Hi. So I think my first experience with VR, I went back to college, went to a lot of really bad prototypes and then different [? interviews ?] for working on them. All I remember about it was that it made me extremely sick. My first experience with more modern VR was when Michael forced me to do the early demo at Valve, which is where I worked before Oculus because we were about to start talking to developers about what we were working on, and he told me we couldn't really talk about it in front of training. 

So he made me try it. I was terrified that it would make me sick, but it was an amazing experience. And when I look back on that, I think the thing that's most interesting is, it was just this really basic room like wallpapering that was like the Yahoo! news feed that was just plastered on the wall and just that seemingly ridiculous room was so immersive. It just felt like you were in a completely different place. And so then we have the really exciting demo where we're talking to developers around the world and showing them prototypes of games and now real games and just getting them excited to build great content. 

And so for me, the Hangout I'm most excited about is, all of the innovations and experiments that game developers are going to do in the next several years to bring us to ways we can't even think of yet. 

So that's our experience. These people are thinking, I thought you were going to tell me about how to make PC games. So we'll shift a little and get into if you're sitting out in the audience, you're thinking about, OK, I want to make a PC VR game. What advice do we have for people jumping in? What have you got? 

Well, I think the first thing is experimentation. Your learning a new medium presents an experience in a game of whatever you want to create in a brand new way and there's so many different things you've got to start thinking of now even from a storytelling perspective, let alone from an [? en ?] vogue perspective and all the game mechanics and whatnots. 

And I think you see that on marketing now where there is going to be a lot of content that are more than short, experiential just testing out the gamer mechanical idea. And I definitely encourage all developers to do that even if it's just for themselves because then they just do a lot of learning so that whenever you decide they want to jump into the VR marketplace, you want to make sure you're ready for it, whether you make the investment now or you learn from others and make the investment down the line. At the end of the day, it will be an investment. But the better you are prepared and the better we can make the market for you, the more successful you'll be. 

I think the [INAUDIBLE], the experimentation is really, really important. But it's not just about experimentation, it's about connections, it's about the community. I'm a little biased. I come from a community where community is really, really important thing to-- I just like talking about it on stage just before this. But that, I think extends even deeper to the community in VR. Games have starting being a little private, so you don't get to share in all the magic that they have going on. 

Software, in general, I used to do work on military contracts and that sort of thing, and that's super secret. You can barely even know what the other guys on the team are doing sometimes, depending on the project. But what I really appreciate about the VR scene right now is this. It's centered around meetups, it's centered around game gyms, it's centered around the community events, so people get to know each other. I mean, I'm looking out this room and I recognize many, many people here. And I look forward to getting to know the ones I don't recognize. It is a community where you can get to know everyone. 

But part of that is you suck up the knowledge and you discuss ideas and you share ideas. Not everyone wants to share in all industries, but in VR right now there's a lot of sharing, and I think that that's really special and it helps you with experimentation. As an aside, E3 just happened, and a lot of people were talking about what Sony showed, basically grafting VR onto existing titles. 

They clearly have a lot of growth to be there. And what I think is really interesting is the indies that have been working in this space in many ways are further ahead where they've gotten some of those experiments of the way. They know that you can't just throw VR camera at an avatar's head and you say, oh, it's a VR game. Now you can do everything else. You can do a forum or add some sort of tracked motion control infused in a virus somewhere. 

So there's a lot more to it than that. It's not just about putting a 3D camera in the game. It's actually about designing the experience or the best experience for the young player. Again, that information is barely written down, but it is shared heavily. Sharing with things like what Ken's been doing, the voices of VR podcasts and getting all these points of view out and the forums and things like that. Communication, very important. 

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think this is like a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This is the start for bringing the [? imp ?] and there are people out there right, many people in this room who are going to be making the [? Kabong ?] or the Tetris of VR, their genre and just complete medium-defining experiences that we're all going to talk about and look back on in 10 years. 

And I think the thing that we're seeing the most as we're working with developers is that although there are some exceptions, generally speaking, 40-year game doesn't work. You can't just throw that camera in there. It doesn't mean though that you have to start from scratch. As a game developer, you've built all these amazing characters and these amazing worlds. Now, you get the opportunity to take those things and use them to develop brand new experience and that means kind of going back to the drawing board and rewriting all the rules on [? hint ?] wood and movement and storytelling and all those things. But for me that's the most exciting thing to be working on at the moment. 

You guys stole all my clients. So I guess, I love the experimentation point. I think that's a big one. I hear a lot of people say, hey, what if you do this, what if you did that? 

Well, guess what. The best thing we have to try it because a lot of things that you think will work, they don't work that well. And stuff that you think will never work actually works pretty well. So I think that entering the experimental approach is really good. 

I guess the point I would make that opportunity is like Anna said, this is once-in-a-decade opportunity. It's as big as smartphones, as the internet, as the PC. You don't get that many of those in your life span. So it's one that you can really get out [INAUDIBLE]. 

It's actually going to look easier. I can say two years ago, we are still on the fringe when Facebook or Oculus people started to pay attention. When Valve jumped in, people were paying more attention, now, Google. Apple is probably going to have something at some point, so there's a lot more excitement. There's a lot more money in the industry as well. 

The big gaming companies in VR, in my opinion, will probably not be the [? Boizas ?] and the Bethesdas and Bungies because those already have big businesses in traditional 2D games. The big VR games I believe is actually going to come from probably someone in this room or in a room like it, someone who has an interesting idea. Now, we've already started to see people coming out of these big companies and these people who's [INAUDIBLE] leave big company, got to great VR idea, and heads down for a year, building something awesome. You go and see these games, and they are amazing. 

And they're a total different sort of game that you would have if you just came out of the traditional game industry and like you said, this might be Gamera Millennial, [INAUDIBLE] and 2D games. So I think that's the opportunity for what we actually get out of [INAUDIBLE] right now. 

All right. So let's shed some light on our experiences. And some of us are making games, some of us are helping people make games, so it's also a one-point perspective. What are the big surprises you've seen so far in the development gaming experiences? And that probably kicks off the rest of the panel. 

So I would say the thing I'm being most excited about and was most surprising to me is social experiences in VR. So we have the experience we call our toy box net room, which is two people in a room. There's a table with blocks in front of them. It's not very high tech or complicated, but you're in that room with another person. And that person has a head and they have hands, and as you're interacting with them, it's like that person is really there. 

And I think that VR gives us this amazing opportunity to connect people, whether they know each other beforehand or not in a way that makes them feel more connected than any other medium before it. It's so much more powerful and so much more exciting than anything like video conferencing. Skype is great. We all like Skyping our family, but to be able to be in a room with your family or playing a board game or doing something together in a way that you feel like those people are sitting with you around a table doing that thing, to me that's just a really powerful and transformative experience. And I think it's something that it can only happen in VR. 

Yeah, I think for me one of the recent experience that handles adding three and working with developers is that the enthusiasm. They know it's a young market. They know it's going to be challenging to have a profitable business working now on it, but it's just so exciting and to trying and trying and trying, responding to feedback I've never-- throughout E3, we had one of the developers from Italy, and they were constantly revising their game overnight based on the feedback that they got during the day. 

And they were so excited, so happy to just have that experience, it's great to see that because that's what's going to help sustain industry and help with the flow. 

Yeah, I'm right now into the social thing, and it turns out that we're sort of finally attuned to the human body and motion and things like if you see a ball that looks like a head and two things that look like hands and you hear someone's voice, your brain will be able to say, oh, that's Todd or that's Anna, and you don't actually need a low fidelity. So things like toy box and obviously, [INAUDIBLE], those kinds of things, people from VR is going to be this terrible solitary thing where they're holding a hand up, going down an individual rabbit holes and getting lost in these virtual worlds. 

But it turns out, we may be lost in the virtual world, so if we're all going to continue, so it will be fun working with VR. 

Yeah, to further that point, I think that's almost coming out unanimous, social aspects where a year or two ago, [? readings ?] were only impressed on the [INAUDIBLE]. And it was going on this idea that, well, VR is great, but you're not going to take a shower. You're not going to talk to humans for a while, a long while. It's going to be great, we're having a good time, but you're not going to interact the same way that you used to. 

But I always kind of thought that was BS because if you look at the internet, it's not the best stuff that's come out of the internet isn't just access to data, but it's actually an access to communities. In fact, many communities have formed online. I remember when I was in college in the '90s, a girl that I knew, we played in orchestra together. She met someone online and married him. That was so crazy. 

It was the craziest thing ever back then. But that's not crazy today, that's actually normal in a lot of areas especially in an urban city like Seattle where there's a lot of online dating and that sort of thing that's going on. But back in that day, that was really bizarre. So the internet, it's all about social, it's all about sharing, and it's all about creating communities that can't exist in the real world. And what I think that is interesting is that's only going to propel further with VR. What's the pool game account? Pool Nation? 

Pool Nation. 

I don't know anyone that has actually played Pool Nation in that they are really into the pool aspect. It pretty fun. [INAUDIBLE]. But man, it turns out to be the number one meeting space. People hang out and talk stuff. I've talked to so many people recently that go into Pool Nation so they can have a business meeting because they can meet the person they want. They could chit chat. They could throw a dart. They could throw some billiards around. 

But the point isn't the action, the point is this meta thing that's on top of it. Again, it basically exists because someone created a space and said, man, it sure would be cool to talk to people. The [? Cumber ?] Junker sets a similar thing except now, we're shooting at each other and trying to stay away from each other, maybe a little anti-social in that regard. But there's something to be said with standing over a pool table with a guy in a bar just talking over business or BS or whatever. 

And so this is an emergent aspect. This is something that people said wasn't going to happen and the exact opposite is coming out right now. And I think it comes down to this idea that we are visual creatures. Body language is really, really important, and this is getting good enough now that you can't recognize the body language. In fact, it's not hard to tell who's a human and who's not a human. Those lines are going to become blurred in the future, but right now humans move in a certain way that we pick up on almost immediately. 

So again, they're going to be box, but it doesn't matter if it moves like a head and kind of bobs around the same way, it's a human. What's also interesting and sometimes weird in that scenario and you see the person kind of raise their hands up and their head kind of moves over. But what's interesting is they just took off their HMD. But you can tell, not just because their hands are on it and it moves, but because the way it moves is more like hands and less like a head at that point. It's amazing to me. That's one of my favorite things to see people take off gear while they're in VR and place them on the table. 

Or the Reggie Watts thing was going on recently. A lot of people had their vibes on. You could tell who was wearing the risk straps because the controllers were just dangling. This body language that comes through almost immediately, and we are wired to pick it up from distance, maybe from some guy out in the field who might kill us or might help us from ancient times. But all this stuff comes through. It's awesome. 

All right. So I've got a two-part question here. How have your expectations changed around VR system we have at the moment, and finally, how do we manage the expectations of those that are just starting with VR? It's exciting. We have to jump in. It's going to change the world, and everybody's going to want what I do, and there's the reality of, OK, these aren't the most cheap machines to own, it's extra expensive, there's a barriers to entry. It's going to take a while for us to get this grasp-able market. I'm curious to see what advise you've give folks out here. 

So I would say it's a marathon, not a sprint. So if you think you're going to build an incredible company, get rich, and exit, then the next year or two in VR [INAUDIBLE] But yeah. So realistically, there's only a small community of people with headsets right now. But sometimes that's the best community to build something and grow something. You're not competing with a bunch of other big companies. It could be with a bunch of other small companies, so it's actually pretty welcoming business environment for startups. 

I think you really have to think about building something either three- to five-year time frame, what does that look like. If you were to start building a game now, where maybe the games could be developed for a year and then maybe the games could be in [? LA ?] access for a year. And then when you sell your second game, that's a find thing you have to think about with VR is, if you want to shoot a VR game today, there's [INAUDIBLE]. I'm sure that Cool Nation is super happy. There's a lot of people playing that game, but you're not going to be able to create something-- even a successful indy game on a 2D platform is going do awfully well at this point. 

So you would think about long term, what you're really doing is, you're building your skills as a developer, you're building a team of people, and going out for great VR content. And even though there may be Unity and Unreal and these tools that you usually form for traditional games, it is similar to a point and it's completely different to a point. A lot of the tricks you traditional engines, can't do in VR, you've got to rethink those. 

So development is kind of small. We've been working with Avira for over a year. I was in [INAUDIBLE] company say, they've heard of [? project ?] no one here has probably ever seen. They've been working on it for two years. It's going to take you a while to get a really awesome [? product ?] to find, so you've got to really think about pacing this over the long term, and then that lets you maximize opportunity for your cellphones, your studio, [? et ?] cetera. 

I think going back to the idea of what are you making, if you're porting something forward, some things work OK, but most things are not going to work that well, or not going to work as well as you think. So you need the time to steepen it and learn the language. You've got to learn how it feels. You need the time to connect with other people and build the teams. 

And I think, actually team building right now is probably the number one most critical piece. If trying to really make your mark and build something cool in VR, that's OK. You don't have to have that out there right now. There's more headsets, I think, out in the wild where people expect it by now, so it's doing pretty well. 

The roll out is doing OK, but at the same time, I travel quite a bit. I like to ask people, especially people like counter-app types who say, oh, yeah, I heard games. I'm a gamer. Let me tell you all about my favorite game. It's just a Call of Duty. I love Call of Duty. But then I asked them, what do you think about VR? What do you think about some of the stuff that's going on? 

The [? scenes ?] tune in, and it's amazing how little it's a public perception. We're so far out of the '90s where there was so much high interest, movies, The Lawnmower Man, I actually hated that movie when it came out. Everyone talks about it all the time now. 

So that zeitgeist of it is gone in a lot of ways especially with the younger folks coming in who are not too far out of college maybe. This is a new fantastic role to them where for some of us that are a little on the older side, not to [? devalue ?], but I'm old enough to see earlier passes and earlier tips. And I guess for some of us, it's like man, is it going to work this time? Is it going to stick this time? Do we finally have enough of our ducks in a row to make this work? 

I think we do, and I think that's starting to show publicly, but we still have a long ways to go as VR community to get the word out and to help people understand why it's important to them. The focus on games is great, and I like games. I work at a game company. I make a lot of games. 

But I'm far more excited about other [? protections. ?] Education is a real big excitement for me. I'm sure everyone here has read Ready Player One. If you haven't go read it tonight. It's your homework. That's my favorite part of the book is this idea that in the future, everyone basically lives in trash games because the world is kind of screwed up. But they all kind of educate themselves in the same location on some virtual planet in some other space. 

That doesn't seem that remote. It doesn't seem that far fetched. In fact, it seems like it's made it right now, and I'd like to see other developments start to happening. Filmmakers I talk to quite a lot lately. People in Hollywood are going crazy for VR right now. Every VP at Sony, I think everyone of Sony Pictures is a VP it seems like, they've all got their own little pet projects they're working on. They're all making something, and there is something to stuff up as much as they can. 

But they're mostly talking adepts and making prototypes and that's great, but I'd like to see what will happen in the future. I've made the States many times in panels and talks that I've done where I say I have a seven-year-old kid. He lives in VR right now. He throws the stick for the robot dog in the lab all the time. 

I used to have to show him how to do it, but now, I have to make sure he's not in there playing on my VR equipment when I'm not there because he's getting good enough that he can start it up. He can barely read, but that doesn't matter. He's fine. He likes the art. 

I'm much more interested, if I'm to do a little time travel and figure out what that generation is going to build because most of the [INAUDIBLE] out there right now are from our generation, like we thought would be cool 20 years ago. I think Quake is 20 years old today. I saw online and Quake's amazing, but it's a little dated, you know? 

I think a lot of the concepts that we were caring about talk about is a little dated as well. So I can't wait to see what's next. 

For me, I think these guys have great points, education, learn, it's an investment, look beyond just straight VR, look beyond gaming. There's going to be plenty of opportunities as the technology progresses and progresses. What it looks like today may not be what it looks like in five years and beyond. It's going to be evolving. 

You have to remember some of the basics of the business is, know who your market is and know what the devises they're going to be using. You remember for VR, even in the foreseeable future, there's going to be many different types of [INAUDIBLE] just like there is now that going to have varying capabilities. And in order to reach a max [INAUDIBLE], you're going to want to make sure you can account for them. Potentially, if it fits in your game, it fits in your application. 

So it's all the learning that you'll be prepared for that and making sure that you can reach the audience that you want to reach and have fun doing it. 

Yeah. I mean, I would just reiterate the people who are jumping in now are the people who are the leaders here in a couple of years when everyone else is jumping in. People who are doing all the learning and experimentation, [INAUDIBLE] in these first years are going to be the ones teaching everybody pretty soon. And it isn't just about games. We're all here because game is awesome, and we're all super excited about it when games are going to be amazing and they are amazing in VR. But there are so many other industries and types that want it that are going to want to build from VR, and they're going to need the skills that game developers have. 

It's just the core skill set, being able to build an engine, being able to tell a story that way and to be able to figure out [? moving ?] around, figure out all of those things that we're learning for games because those are the exact game skills that we need to take someone around the world in a travel experience or an education experience or anything you can really think of. 

So I think game developers are at the center of what's going to be a huge industry, and we need more of them, and the people in this room will be the ones learning and then teaching that next generation. 

All right. Well, we are now at the time I'm going to open up to questions to you all. So is there anything special to the audience? You're the first, then I'll shoot to the end. 

Sitting versus standing, and what about working in like endurance, people who aren't used to VR? How can developers take it to the [? town ?] of deeper endurance and things like that? 

You may have to repeat that. 

Yeah. So the question, sitting, the person is standing, that's the question, but also how much does endurance matter? There is this idea of VR legs kind of like you have steel legs. You don't get sick when you go up. It takes time. I get sick when I go up on a boat, but I don't get sick in VR. It takes a lot. 

But that wasn't the case early on. It took me at least a while to train. And I think it's going to take folks a lot of training to allow the body to understand what those sensations are. Also the hardware is going to improve some of those sensations we [INAUDIBLE] in society more over time. Sitting versus standing, from my point of view, depends on the game. 

I mean, Elite, Dangerous, one of the best games ever, forget about that game. I just spent playing the engineer's update. Just came out recently. Finally have weekend. Play it a little bit. I'm probably going to stay up way too late tonight playing it again. That's a game I can only play seated, but I have a joy stick and a throttle and I'm in my pocket when I sit down at my desk to play that game. 

But there's other games that I would never even consider playing seated. I think it depends on the experience. If it's well-designed for your player and well-designed for, like if you want it to be seated, make sure it's well-designed for seated. I don't think that you can ever have the assumption that it doesn't really matter, not yet. Maybe some day when it's a little more a commodity, but right now it's still a little focused. 

And I think everyone's got the preference, but what I do like about standing, especially looping around in VR, it makes you work out a little bit. Sometimes it gets kind of sweaty in there. Put a fan on. It's always good. What's interesting is now when I'm tired of playing, I'm not tired because I don't know what else to do next or I'm just kind of mentally lethargic, but I've been sitting on the couch the whole times curled up in a fetal position. I'm tired physically. I need to stop playing for a while because my body hurts. 

That's not a bad thing, in my opinion. It kind of reminds me of the Nintendo game where after you've played for a while, they put up the little slash finger that says, hey, why don't you go outside and play for a while? I mean, the picture was an open window with the breeze blowing through it. 

And I think having doses that you kind of build up is fine, but I've got to say you can easily spend 8 to 10 hours in VR, and what's funny is you think it's 1 or 2 hours, maybe. But sometimes you realize you've really got to pee really, really bad, and you don't know why. You've been sitting for a long time. 

Yeah, I would agree. I think we don't know what the rules are. I think Game Cover is really smart, and they're really creative. And if they focus first on the experience that they wanted to build, it would kind of [? call ?] out whether you're actually seating or standing or how long it should be. And I think that's the best possible thing for an overall ecosystem right now. 

Because not only do we know not what to build because it's brand new, but our customers don't yet know what their favorite to do is. So the more variety can provide of experiences for people to try [? plus ?] all deliver them, I think that will help us to all move everything forward. 

And too back to the point made by the panel, community, what if you learn from each other, share those tips and tricks on how you combated the nausea and eye strain because technology can solve some of the problems, but there are still a lot of design twisting that we make to help ease the eye strain, ease the [INAUDIBLE] and things like when you're trying to accelerate the delivery too soon, too fast, or watch how you handle bright colors around the peripheral vision so [INAUDIBLE]. A lot of tips and tricks, anything to programmatically help the experience and make it as endurable as possible for as many people as possible. 

I think it's suitable for us to say anything really quite, Anna said comes down to what you want to build. Like obviously, a flight space ships game and [INAUDIBLE] Like Pete does, I like to sit down. Also you put your hands on controllers, so it kind of advise you to sit down. This gaming experience I would argue are a little bit more aggressive. You could lose yourself a little bit more in it. 

Always remember you're sitting down and that kind of brings you back to the fact it is just assimilation. Sometimes when you're standing you can totally lose the track where you are. 

Which is concern. Because people are in a virtual arena. 

Sure. [INAUDIBLE]. So in terms of people hitting their legs, it doesn't take very long. I mean, we've probably gone well over 200 downloads in the VR office now across riff and volume. If people come in and they've gone beyond forward, usually one or two down, I think we've literally had like two experiences in adding 200 and it will always be something you don't expect like phobias is one. 

So for example, has anyone done the [? balloon ?] in room 5? It's pretty cool. You're under water. There's a whale, and you're surrounded by fish. So it turns out there were people that are terrified of fish. And we didn't notice. We put on the headset on and said, hey, you're going to do this and we didn't say anything. We just said you're going to be [? gone. ?] They freaked out. So I hinted off, [? oh, ?] people have fish. 

So now you're just going to feedback. You're not going to physically be there, but when you're telling people about your experience or sharing, you can say, hey, you're going to start off under water. There's going to be a whale and some fish. And then watch their reaction say, stop. But you've just got to think about it like that. 

My wife is terrified of butterflies. And the Holodance game it's a really cool game where you dance with a dragon, and it's really cool. It's really interesting. But my wife would like to play it, but it's full of butterflies and she's not going to play it with butterflies. 

So there are a lot of things like that. I think the actual mechanics of putting on the headset, people get real used to that withing 15, 20 minutes. I think you get your, once the controls get on, you get a little bit used to the effect, the depth of the field, things like that. And the cable on your feet, that seems to come pretty quickly. 

I mean, fingers crossed, there are 200 demos in the office and don't think we've had-- that's not true. One person [INAUDIBLE], their daughter and she tried to lean on the virtual table. And so she fell over. And actually, it went viral along-- 

I think I saw that one. 

You've seen that one. Yeah. So a few things like that, but otherwise, I think it will get there pretty quick. 

You had a question. 

[INAUDIBLE]. 

Sure. We're running short of time, but go for it. 

So you mentioned the design [INAUDIBLE]. 

Hi, everyone. 110%. 

[INAUDIBLE]. 

Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] point that out. 

So the question was, should developers thinking about creating VR experiences specifically for streaming. Is that fair? 

Right. So the problem there is that streaming today, we're starting in 2D surface on another 2D surface, so we use video to do that. So when you catch the HMD videos, streams out to [? stream. ?] Seems like a good idea. The moment the person playing the game starts moving around, it looks like you've got a person up to the head and then most people can't watch it for very long. 

Also you can't actually see what they're doing. You can't see the person. So actually, what we realize, it's a way to stream VR games that you're not stopping the viewpoint of the person playing it, and you can actually see that person [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah, I'm happy to check with and if you want to see them more personal. 

Yeah, the more you can get away from the first person, I view the better. We've run tons and tons of demos in the lab at Unity, and we have folks that come back from [? Moas ?] and life. And folks that are a little sensitive from motion sickness already-- like I've got a couple of friends that I love to test on them because they just can't do VR, it's not their thing. Not that we're doing something bad or wrong, it doesn't feel right or it hits something their head that's not in their mind. 

But what's interesting is, some people will look at the flat view on the screen just like the left eye [INAUDIBLE]. And they think it moves around like crazy because it does. Your head is always, always, always moving. Your eyes are always moving. There are all these little subtle motions that goes back to that body language and how you can tell if it's a human. 

They're going to be fingerprinting you based on how you tilt your head pretty soon, I'm sure. Talking about tracking, it's going to be everywhere. But what's interesting is as soon as you have it on your head, all the shakiness is gone because we're all shaky human beings. We all shake around all the time. But we ignore that. We filter [? else. ?] Our brain builds the model of what to the world and gets rid of all that noise. 

And when you see it on the screen, it's really, really obvious that there's something else going on. There's other stuff happening that your not always aware of. 

So Todd knows a lot about the swinging '90s, so I'll defer him on that. I'm going to answer your question from a different perspective, which I think is another interesting thing to think about how when it comes to talking about your game and marketing your game in VR and that's how you're representing in trailers. So this is actually something we think about a lot when we were just all [? 8, ?] 3, check up on all of our content, right? 

And we all used to make these amazing trailers with dramatic cut scenes and the key moments of the game. Actually, doesn't it all represent the amazing part about being in VR? And so I think there's a lot of experimenting and learning to do around representing what it actually feels like to be in your game as opposed to just playing your game. The [? killing ?] four guys for the announcement last week had a couple of cool moments in their trailer where they did things like tossing a gun from one hand to another, which is clearly something that you can't do outside of VR. 

Or doing things like mix reality, where you're showing people play as you're also showing the experience that they're in. So I think there's not really the perfect answer to that. I think that's still something for us all to work and solve, but I would say that that's another key thing to think about when you're talking about your games to the rest of the world. 

I think we are out of time. If you do have questions now-- do we have time for one more, Dave? All right. We're going to do one more. 

[INAUDIBLE]. 

So with user interface, are there innovations and things like technology that is seen in VR? Is that the question you're asking? I'm going to see eye tracking in all HMDs. Eyes, they do so much. They are so important. [INAUDIBLE]. I want to see that. I've seen some small versions of that, but it needs to go a lot further. 

I also want to see individual hands and things, not just am I covered a button and a half way or not? Am I using a wand in my hand, so I effectively have a club. Can I touch things with my fingertips. Can I attract to that point? That's probably a little further out, but there's some really great advancements already out there in this business. 

I think that you can react like you would in a normal world, this world, then whole, the better. That's kind of the holy grail. It's what I think. It doesn't have to be real, if you can get the feel. 

I think the front end of the point, there is definitely a lot of research and development going on from that perspective, whether it be iTracking for [? V ?] rendering, definitely an input device much like the muffling guys in one night. But I think the further along we get there, the sooner it's going to be much more from a UI perspective. But I also think from a UI design, there's no better way to do a better UI than to just iterate the process yourself. 

Far too many times I've seen content where I'm struggling to even read what the UI is trying to convey, let alone trying to do operating control on that. Because even some base fundamentals have to take place before you even factor in the type of info mechanisms that you're going to be supporting on. 

I guess one thing I would say is don't get too distracted of UI by [? transport ?] every different thing, like if you're going to build a game that supports the [? fields ?] ties like the black controls and [? A-track ?] input, then build that, iterate on it, and make it really good. There's a lot of you way out there today that's not that good, and so there's a lot of games online and we're like who use this thing. Everyone is taking a different approach. 

You should put all of your effort into for flying it in a software. I mean, Leap Motion is very popular with developers, but it's not a commercially available product for most people. And also you've got [? face ?] the works on a limited budget. I'm going to apply a small percentage in the market whereas, somebody who works for [? Metuchen ?] and the five controllers, every single person that has one of these is going to get one of them. 

So you need to think about that, otherwise, you can't make a really good UI, [INAUDIBLE] If you're thinking future forward, it's probably something that we'll see less of and then I will quote that everyone is going to have controls at the touch even with all the devices we have that and we'll be even less dependent on games [? space ?]. 

If you have a game that's going to shoot in a year or two, my bet would be-- and people I'm sure would disagree, but probably less game space UI [INAUDIBLE] controls and not trying for a UI that serves every possible piece of hardware, because those things may not be relevant in a year or two. 

Yeah, I guess I'll go back to my earlier answer, which is, this is our moment to throw away all the rules and start over. We built a bunch of UI interactive models for games because we didn't have hands and we didn't have other ways to interact with a screen other than a keyboard and a mouse. And now we're back to being able to interact with things the way we actually would in real life, with hands, with where we are looking, all of those things. 

So I encourage us all to take everything we've learned about keyboard- and mouse-style games and throw it out the window and go back to just thinking about if I was actually in this room, what would I do to interact with this thing right now. And think that will lead to the most intuitive way for gamers to interact with the [? world. ?] 

Thank you all so much for [? coming ?] in here. [? How ?] many times have you [INAUDIBLE] ask us, I assume will be around and about a little bit.

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